Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, we revisited the Davar estate, with sixteen-year-old Shallan trying hard to be obedient. This week, it’s back to Kaladin’s prison cell for a fateful conversation.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 62: The One Who Killed Promises
Point of View: Kaladin
Setting: Kholin warcamp prison
Symbology: Spears, Nalan
IN WHICH Kaladin grumbles at the sameness of the days in prison; Syl has been hiding from him; she speaks of seeing a Cryptic at the fight, and that she recognizes signs that they are looking for someone to bond; Dalinar enters the room, and Kaladin salutes despite himself; Dalinar assures him that he’ll be out in a few more days, but Kaladin expresses doubt, given Elhokar’s history; Dalinar knows immediately that he’s speaking of the silversmiths in Kholinar, and mentions the Roshone affair; Kaladin asks for further information, and Dalinar gives him a brief version; Kaladin phrases his response in terms that fail to allow Dalinar to understand the personal impact Roshone’s exile had on him; Dalinar reminds Kaladin that, however things should work, the way they do work means that challenging Amaram was an ineffective approach to changing them; Dalinar leaves, and Kaladin focuses only on the fact that Elhokar’s poor decision-making inadvertently cost his family their comfortable position in Hearthstone, and decides that it would be best for the kingdom if Elhokar were removed.
Quote of the Week
“I gave you a position no darkeyes has ever held in this army. I let you into conferences with the king, and I listened when you spoke. Do not make me regret those decisions, soldier.”
“You don’t already?” Kaladin asked.
“I’ve come close,” Dalinar said. “I understand, though. If you truly believe what you told me about Amaram … well, if I’d been in your place, I’d have been hard pressed not to do the same thing you did. But storm it, man, you’re still a darkeyes.”
“It shouldn’t matter.”
“Maybe it shouldn’t, but it does. You want to change that? Well, you’re not going to do it by screaming like a lunatic and challenging men like Amaram to duels. You’ll do it by distinguishing yourself in the position I gave you. Be the kind of man that others admire, whether they be lighteyed or dark. Convince Elhokar that a darkeyes can lead. That will change the world.”
Hmm. I’d forgotten that Dalinar says this so clearly. “Maybe it shouldn’t, but it does.” This is what I keep trying to say: when things don’t work the way they should, by all means you should work to change them – but ignoring the way they work won’t change anything… except changing your status from “free” to “in prison.”
Commentary
This is really the meat of the chapter, as Dalinar unwittingly fills in the final arc that brings Kaladin’s and Moash’s backstories into a loop.
“The Roshone affair.” I’m reminded of Chapter 37 in The Way of Kings, when Lirin said, “I still don’t know which highlord was behind sending him here to torment us, though I wish I had him for a few moments in a dark room….” Now Kaladin knows, and I suppose with the backdrop of Lirin’s anger at whatever highlord inflicted Roshone on them, it’s no wonder he holds Elhokar partially to blame for what his family suffered from Roshone’s malice.
Questions:
- Was it a good thing for Kaladin to bring up Elhokar’s past errors? Is his own situation (keeping Dalinar in mind, here) sufficient justification for more or less accusing Elhokar of intending to leave him to die in prison?
- Should he have told Dalinar about his own Roshone connection? Would Dalinar have done anything differently? Would telling the story have changed Kaladin’s perspective? Would it have made any difference in Kaladin’s decision to support Moash’s assassination plans?
- Is this an overuse of the lack-of-communication plot device, or is it a justified use, or is the device irrelevant to the situation? (I.e., lack of communication isn’t really the problem here.)
I, of course, have my own opinions on these things, but I’d really like to hear your discussions.
I know I’ve mentioned this before, but I think it’s worth pointing out now that we’re here. Dalinar’s reaction to Kaladin’s claim that Elhokar “has a history of letting inconvenient people rot in dungeons until they die” should reveal something to Kaladin and to us. That was an isolated incident. While Elhokar does indeed have a real history of taking advice from the wrong people and making truly atrocious leadership decisions, this is not one he repeated. Dalinar instantly knew exactly who Kaladin was talking about: the silversmiths back in Kholinar… meaning it only happened that one time.
Which is not to say that he didn’t have other people unjustly imprisoned, or that he didn’t thoughtlessly make a mess of many lives by doing favors for those who flattered him enough. I’m just saying that clearly someone learned something from that debacle, and either Elhokar was smart enough not to repeat it, or Dalinar (and/or Gavilar) was smart enough to keep a better eye on the crown prince.
Kaladin, of course, only sees that Elhokar’s past foolishness ended with his own family’s maltreatment by Roshone, and connects it with the tantrum Elhokar threw after the big fight and his own imprisonment. As a result – despite Dalinar’s wise words about loyalty and generosity and the flaws of all men – Kaladin decides he’s qualified to determine the course that will be best for the welfare of the kingdom and Dalinar himself.
Just a bit arrogant, m’lad. Just a bit.
Also: if Dalinar’s “I was … away at the time” is referring to his trip to the Nightwatcher, said trip had nothing to do with Gavilar’s death. (I seem to recall recent speculation along that line, right?)
Stormwatch: This is Kaladin’s tenth day in prison.
Sprenspotting: Kaladin sees captivity-spren! Pretty sure that’s what they are, “strange spren like taut wires crossing before him.” I have a theory that Axies never saw them because being imprisoned just never bothered him enough. Could have something to do with the length of the imprisonment, though, I suppose.
In other news, Syl has become very hard to spot – which I assume is largely a matter of her discomfort with Kaladin’s current attitude and the distance he’s put between them. However, she’s still talking to him.
“There was a Cryptic at the fight,” her voice said softly.
“You mentioned those before, didn’t you? A type of spren?”
“A revolting type.” She paused. “But not evil, I don’t think.” She sounded begrudging. “I was going to follow it, as it fled, but you needed me. When I went back to look, it had hidden from me.”
“What does it mean?” Kaladin asked, frowning.
“Cryptics like to plan,” Syl said slowly, as if recalling something long lost. “Yes … I remember. They debate and watch and never do anything. But …”
“What?” Kaladin asked, rising.
“They’re looking for someone,” Syl said. “I’ve seen the signs. Soon, you might not be alone, Kaladin.”
Looking for someone. To choose, like him, as a Surgebinder. What kind of Knight Radiant had been made by a group of spren Syl so obviously detested? It didn’t seem like someone he’d want to get to know.
Oh, storms, Kaladin thought, sitting back down. If they choose Adolin …
The thought should have made him sick. Instead, he found Syl’s revelation oddly comforting. Not being alone, even if it did turn out to be Adolin, made him feel better and drove away some small measure of his gloom.
I’m… just going to leave that there for you to discuss. I can’t seem to phrase my comments coherently, but this conversation seems Significant.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
No, this has neither shell nor feather, and in fact isn’t in this chapter at all. I include it anyway, and my reasons are twofold: One, I miss Carl around here. Two, this chapter could seriously use some levity. Or levitation. Either one.
Also: Snuhr. I want some this year!
Heraldic Symbolism: Nalan. I would venture to guess that his presence reflects Kaladin’s conclusion that “justice” requires getting rid of the king, presuming to know what’s best for the kingdom.
There. That ought to keep us depressed until next week, when Shallan gets all clever and outwits a Ghostblood or something. See you in the comments!
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She is currently up to her ears in Christmas preparations, now that the Calamity proofreading is complete.
Shouldn’t that bit about a Cryptic choosing Adolin be under shipping wars? :D
I wish Syl had expounded upon the signs she was talking about. I hope that at some point in the series (either in the 1st 5 books or the 2nd 5 books) that we learn more about the Sprens’ requirements for bonding somebody. I believe that each type of Spren (Honorspren, Highspren, Cryptics, etc.) has its own requirements. I hope Brandon writes chapters that have POVs from Spren. I would love to read a Syl or Pattern POV chapter.
It was too bad that Kaladin could not trust Dalinar enough to admit the impact of Roshone on Kaldin’s life. I do not think that Dalinar learning this knowledge about Kaladin would have changed anything in this chapter. Rather, Dalinar was showing (and telling) Kaladin that he (a lighteyes) trusts Kaladin (a darkeyes). Kaladin telling Dalinar about Roshone would have shown that at least in this once instance, Kaladin returns the trust. Even by the end of WoR, I do not believe that Kaladin 100% trusts Dalinar. I think that Kaladin believes that Dalinar is a good man and is not like the typical lighteye. However, I still do not believe that Kaladin trusts Dalinar. Hopefully Kaladin’s intended journey to Hearthstone will allow Kaladin to put his mistrust of lighteyes as a class behind him. (I distinguish this type of class-based mistrust from the mistrust of actual individuals for specific reasons — like Sadeas and Amaram.)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
LMAO!! Alice you are great! (just saw the ferret)!
Thank you!! Carl, we miss you!
omg
I have not been able to see the comments for a month. Therefore, not able to post as well. What is up with this website? I’ve only been able to see Alice’s opening commentary, then it jumps to the bottom ad line. So frustrating! I have tried so many refreshing tricks to try to get the comments back but nothing worked. I was thinking I may have been blocked. I didn’t say anything offensive! Or so I thought…
Finally today I see the comments. But now I feel too behind to jump back into the discussion. Yuck. Just stating my dissatisfaction.
noblehunter @1 – That would have been a valid choice! :D
Andrew @2 – I can’t quite decide if I want to read spren POVs or not. In many ways, it would be very cool; on the other hand, I like the idea that we simply can’t get into their “heads” – their thought processes are too different from ours. (What are the thought processes of a cognitive entity, anyway?) This turns out to be one area where I have no particular hopes or expectations… but I definitely would like to know more about the choosing process.
Braid_Tug @3 – Thank you for the picture! And you’re welcome. ;)
Other things – One more question I meant to ask but forgot: Who exactly is “the one who killed promises”? Dalinar, Elhokar, Kaladin, Roshone, Syl… I don’t really have a good solution on this one, and it’s not a quotation from the chapter or elsewhere in the book.
ETA: Jonah, I flagged your comment to be sure the mods see it. I hope it gets better! May I ask what platform you’re using? I use Chrome, and rarely (though not never) have problems.
I, too, would dearly like to know what those “signs” are, and whether Syl is actually right about it, as we know that Pattern has been bonded for years. Yes, Elokhar had been seeing something very much like Cryptics in the mirrors, but was he the only one, or are there more secretly terrified people, afraid of mentioning it so as not to appear mad, being scoped out by them in the camps? And, hopefully, he is not destined to be eventually chosen. IMHO, YMMV.
And BTW, isn’t it odd that Syl couldn’t tell that Pattern was already taken, and that she couldn’t recognize that Shallan was bonded? And vice versa? Shouldn’t the bond change the cognitive imprint of a surge-binder, given that it becomes part of them and allows them to hold and manipulate Stormlight and the Surges? Hm…
Well, Kaladin is the one who eventually comes closest to “killing promises” among the people mentioned in this chapter, IMHO. And his decision to kill Elokhar is pivotal in that.
And yea, maybe a hint re: Adolin’s possible destiny. Though not with a Cryptic, I don’t think. Also, a sign of developing bromance.
P.S. For me the comments sometimes load and sometimes (usually when the site is busy) don’t. Regardless of a platform, but weaker devices have more problems.
#4 @Jonah – I’ve had problems with the comments lately on my phone (using Chrome) but if I refresh a couple times they do eventually show up. Hopefully you’ll see it working better!
I think seeing how distant Syl is from Kaladin is what makes this chapter difficult. Of course there’s worse to come.
I would not call Kaladin arrogant since that implies a disdain for other people and their views. It’s just that he has complete confidence in the correctness of his own opinions to the extent that he offers them even in the presence of the high princes and king. His penchant for disregarding societal norms and his lower darkeye status is what has lead to his current predicament – although he refuses to see it that way. However, I can see the reason for his not admitting his Roshone connection to Dalinar. Had he done so, Dalinar might have been duty bound to dismiss him from serving as head of the king’s guardians since he had admitted to yet another reason to hate Elhokar. While that part of his duties could have been separated from his guardian duty to Dalinar and family, it might have been too difficult to justify. Such a dismissal would have left Kaladin at loose ends and destroyed the proper functioning of the former bridgemen as the protective force for the Kholins. In any case, the discovery that Elhokar was the one who sent (or exiled) Roshone to Hearthstone that brought so much grief to Kaladin’s family was the final straw that pushed Kaladin to agree to Moash’s involvement in the plot to assassinate the king.
I don’t know if Kaladin telling Dalinar about his personal connection to Roshone would have have changed the physical situation, but it would have given Dalinar more insight into WHY Kaladin did what he did, and helped instruct Elhokar that actions have consequences.
@5 The one who killed promises – in this chapter I feel like we’re supposed to take that as Roshone (as it’s basically his existence that sets that into motion), but later on it becomes Kaladin because of that. But except for Syl I can see arguments for all of them (even if I consider promises Syl somewhat made broken, she wouldn’t be the one killing them).
Also lol at the picture and I’m with you when it comes to wishing for snow. I’m in the part of Maryland that’s close enough to the Chesapeake Bay where I’m lucky to get decent accumulation of snow (unlike the western handle of the state which reliably gets slammed with it).
As to this being an example of the abuse of miscommunication/lack there-of as a device…I think it passes. Kaladin’s already in a bit of a toxic mindset, but even disregarding that, the reveal of who sent Roshone is just shocking/disorienting enough that I can’t see most people as opening up about that. Not right away anyhow.
Plus Kaladin doesn’t dissemble well, but we’ve seen that Dalinar is not always the most perceptive about picking up on details like that (although he does pick up on it leaving Kaladin worse off or it seems like he does).
So in this case it doesn’t feel like deliberate forced miscommunication, at least to me.
Regarding the lack-of-communication plot device: yes, it gets frustrating, but it’s consistent with Kaladin’s character. He never shares his story with anyone if he can avoid it. Even the bridgemen don’t know his history; in his present state of mind, he won’t share it with a lighteyes.
I’m normally frustrated when characters don’t talk to each other and I hate it when I read a plot that would never have happened because the character should have just told each other what information that they have. To me the fact that Kaladin didn’t tell Dalinar doesn’t read like that. It’s not information that person would normally bring up to someone who wasn’t a friend IMO. Therefore I don’t expect that Kaladin would tell people. Also Kaladin keeps a lot of information about his past to himself, so once again it doesn’t strike me as something as something that he would tell Dalinar.
I think it’s been mentioned by other that if Kaladin did tell Dalinar the only thing that could have happened was for Dalinar to remove Kaladin from protecting Elhokar and if that didn’t happen then we would have all been yelling at Dalinar for not doing anything. That wouldn’t have read true to either of the characters. Also it would have impacted Dalinar’s trust in Kaladin to guard him. Right now Kaladin is doing that thing again where he writes off something that he doesn’t like about another person as them being a good person but unable to see what the situation really is. He did that with Amaram when Tein died, but it could be seen that Dalinar is as much as fault for Roshone because he didn’t stick to his first thought of having Roshone stripped to a tenner.
The lack of information trope becomes a problem when it doesn’t ring true of the character to withhold the information in question. In real life even the most open person doesn’t tell everyone everything. Kaladin already isn’t an open person, as the reader we know a lot about him. We know his thoughts on just about every situation the books throw at him and we know his past but the other characters in the book he’s a mystery. He’s learned during his time as a slave not to tell people his past so it rings true to his character that he wouldn’t right away share his past with Dalinar right after he’s heard that Elhokar and to some degree Dalinar was responsible for bring that man into his family’s life.
Good point about Dalinar knowing exactly which situation Kaladin was talking about when he mentions the people rotting in dungeons. I think he just assumed that people/guards had been gossiping to Kaladin. If the incident with the silversmiths was something that was brought against Elhokar often Daliniar might not question how Kaladin knows about it. We just don’t know how often in the past that story has been brought up but it sounded like Dalinar has been dealing with that story being brought up often enough.
I didn’t read it as miscommunication either. Dalinar and Kaladin aren’t in a relationship were they are ready to share their deepest secrets though I love how Dalinar finally talked down Kaladin. You want to prove you are better than they? Then start by doing your job right and stop pulling a tantrum each time things don’t go as you wish. In other words, stop acting like an entitled spoiled child Kaladin. Serves you right. I love this sequence.
I also like how it is pointed Elhokar is not guilty of having murdered countless people: he is guilty of trusting a bad advice which led to the death of an elderly couple. Bad business, but he was rather young at the time. All in all, it is more Dalinar’s fault than anyone else, he was supposed to assist him, but saw more fit to go on a personal trip.
However playing the endless game as to who is responsible for who’s misery is tiresome. Nobody directly wished for Roshone to terrorize a town and none thought he would do so. End of story.
STBLST @8 – I was using the term “arrogant” (exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one’s own worth or importance) in the sense connected to the origin “arrogate” (to claim or seize without justification, to make undue claims to having): Kaladin considered himself qualified to determine that the kingdom, and even Dalinar, would be better off without Elhokar. He bases his determination on: one incident which happened more than six years ago and which negatively impacted his own family and a friends family; one incident which happened two weeks ago and resulted in his (overall quite comfortable) imprisonment; and general observation that he thinks Elhokar whines too much. I don’t see that Kaladin is in any way qualified to make this decision; he doesn’t know Elhokar very well, he knows governance even less, and he knows the complexities of controlling Alethi Highprinces not at all.
So yes, I think he is exaggerating the value and importance of his opinion, and is arrogating to himself (with no justification at all) the right to judge the king and decide that he needs to be removed. That’s arrogant, whether he’s consciously disdainful of anyone else or not.
Every time I’ve read this chapter I always assumed that the Cryptic that Syl had sensed was Pattern. And more than likely it is and that would make sense. But…… what if it wasn’t? What if there was actually a 2nd Cryptic there that was with Renarin or that was looking for someone to bond with. I mean Pattern is already bonded to a pretty solid degree with Shalan, enough so that she can use him as a Shardblade which takes Kaladin a while to work up to with Syl (altho of course things could work differently with each order, but nonetheless, I don’t think Pattern would fit the description of being in the market for someone to bond with.) And Syl might have been wrong about the Cryptic looking for someone to bond with. Certainly she’s not aware that Kaladin isn’t alone already. So it was probably Pattern but it’s interesting to consider that it might not have been.
The way I see it, Kaladin has a number of positive attributes but also a number of negative ones, like all the other characters though for different reasons. I definitely see him as arrogant. A number of his attributes (both positive and negative) seem to stem from him having stronger emotions than most, particularly on the negative side. He can go from seemingly being confident (arrogantly so) to being depressed and being very down on himself quite quickly.
In book 1 he uses his anger effectively (for the most part) to motivate himself but in book 2 he isn’t able to channel his anger effectively and instead it becomes a liability – I see his problems in book 2 being the flip side of his heroics in book 1. This to me is part of what makes him a compelling, interesting and well written character. It’s not always fun to read, of course, but it’s a lot better overall.
Just for the record, we do have an interlude from the POV of a spren. Or at least I think it’s a spren. At least it is the cognitive manifestation of a physical object. Would that make it a spren? Is Kaladin’s mother’s claim that all objects have spren canon, or just in-world beliefs that might not reflect realmatic theory?
@14 Wetlandernw, I don’t know that we’re really in disagreement about Kaladin’s character. My objection to the use of the word ‘arrogant’ to describe him is based on the very negative connotation of the word. He certainly possesses a very high degree of self-assurance which has led him to his current predicament. If we differ it’s only in terms of nuance. That also extends to his rationale for wishing Moash and company success in their assassination plot. It’s not only his imprisonment, which may have been objectively not uncomfortable, that was mentally devastating to Kaladin who needed to feel the wind and not be confined by walls. There is also the element that his imprisonment was an afterthought of Elhokar who initially ordered his execution, but was thwarted by Dalinar’s threatening opposition. That alone would be cause for disdain, if not hatred. The newly gained knowledge that Roshone’s disastrous rule in Hearthstone was the result of Elhokar’s prior decision to exile a bad actor, served to consolidate that contempt. I also find some disagreement with your judgment that Kaladin knows little about governance. He controls a division of some thousand former bridgemen who are being trained as the protectors of the Kholins, and knows everything about leadership. His judgment that Elhokar is useless, or worse, as a leader has much merit. Even Elhokar later admits his inability to lead and seeks guidance from Kaladin. Kaladin’s initial rejection of the king’s plea points to his difficulty in changing his opinions. He does so dramatically, however, in the chasm where his initial disdain for Shallan turns into more than admiration when he learns some of her life story.
Oh, Kaladin understands leadership. He just doesn’t understand what governing a nation involves, and he doesn’t understand what effects assassinating the king would have, and he doesn’t understand how many lives would likely be thrown away in a probable ensuing civil war, and he doesn’t understand … governance. He’s thinking in terms of the man, not the king, and he doesn’t understand that there’s a difference.
Just to be clear I’m not placing any blame on Dalinar for how things fell out with Roshone. I’m just pointing out that arguments can be made by the characters that are withing line of what I understand of the characters thought process. Right now Kaladin is excusing Dalinar. He did the same thing for Amaram when he first came to Amaram’s army. Amaram broke trust with Kaladin in a very horrendous way which now causes Kaladin to blame Amaram for everything. It’s a thing Kaladin does when he can’t take the blame on himself he will find someone else to place it one. It’s not one of his better qualties but it take time for some people to realized that there is no gain spending time blaming people.
I believe there is a difference to be made between leadership and ruling, a difference which often is forgotten when comes the time to discuss Kaladin. I have read many commentaries from individuals (not necessarily here) muddling the two and firmly believing Kaladin is destined to occupy a high seat in the ruling structure because he has a leadership attribute.
I disagree with the notion.
Kaladin is a good leader in the sense he is capable of inspiring people to better themselves. His men are better persons because they are his men. He leads by example and is so compelling others find themselves with no other alternative but to emulate him. This is essentially what being a leader means, which is not the same as being a ruler.
However, Kaladin is a terrible ruler because he essentially is too focus on his small group of people and his own person to even begin to understand the larger scope of events. Not only does he not comprehend why there are conventions in the world, he believes it is best to ignore them whenever it suits him. He also makes leap of judgment by self-declaring an individual worthy of death based on a one-sided story: he has not heard Elhokar version of the events and yet he is ready to pass judgment.
Therefore, I am with Alice on this one as well. Yes, Kaladin is arrogant and yes he is not suited for ruling. However it does not remove him from his many great qualities such as perseverance and dedication. Part 4 is, unfortunately, not very flattering towards Kaladin as a character.
I had wonder too if the “others are coming” necessarily meant Pattern…
I am partly in disagreement with Wetlander’s assessment of Kaladin’s failings and certainly in that of Gepeto. Kaladin assumes that Dalinar, a much stronger and more capable person will take the royal mantle should Elhokar be killed. That is one driving force for his agreement with the assassination plot. He blames Elhokar for undoing the plan to eliminate Sadeas – not himself (for that matter, so does Dalinar and even Elhokar). He doesn’t anticipate a bloody civil war. He may be wrong in his assessment given Sadeas’ personality and power, but such errors of judgment – if it is so labeled, is not uncommon even of those accustomed to rule. In any case, the current prosecution of the war against the Parshendi already involves much loss of life for basically economic and selfish gains.
Kaladin is a natural leader, but has never been in the position of a ruler. Should he so become, he would be expected to rise to the challenge. He has readily expanded his sphere of responsibility from one individual, Tien, to his squad in Amaram’s army, to his bridge crew, to all wounded bridgemen, to all bridgemen and the Kholins. Accepting rule (which I don’t believe will happen) would just be another expansion of his sphere of responsibility. What he would do with opponents is another matter (I assume that he would use his power to cow them into submission), but he would take his responsibility very seriously.
At the risk of rehashing old material, Kaladin’s current willingness to allow the assassination plot to proceed is not based on Dalinar’s story of how Roshone got to be lord of Kaladin’s town and the persecutor of his family. That information just reinforced his prior conclusion that Elhokar was an unworthy ruler who needed to be removed. That conclusion was based on his own experience with the king’s rash judgments. He would have been perfectly satisfied to see him resign his office to be replaced by Dalinar. However that is not the way power is transferred in Alethi society. It takes a coup to remove a king.
“Kaladin is a natural leader, but has never been in the position of a ruler.” “He would have been perfectly satisfied to see him resign his office to be replaced by Dalinar. However that is not the way power is transferred in Alethi society. It takes a coup to remove a king.”
That’s exactly what I’m saying. Kaladin doesn’t know enough about politics, governing, Alethi lighteyes traditions and government – ALL THE THINGS – to actually be in a position to determine whether or not it would be beneficial to the kingdom for the king to be assassinated. Hence, his attitude that he is indeed qualified to make that determination is arrogating to himself an authority he simply doesn’t have. He’s being arrogant. Not necessarily in the common sense of despising or being contemptuous of others, but in assuming that his opinion is sufficient to cover such weighty matters.
Kaladin’s attitude here is a perfect example as to why military leaders generally do poorly in the realms of governance. They tend to look for the simple solution, the most direct. Even the best ones are ill-suited to rule because the skillset is different. When Kaladin becomes a General he would do well to lean on the more politically inclined. Hell, Dalinar is only doing it because there isn’t a better candidate; it takes a considerable effort for him to even become competent in that arena. There’s a reason the tradition in America as well as most of the western world to have the civilians in ultimate charge of the military and not the other way around.
I’d say if anything the arrogant part of what Kaladin decides is how it involves killing: the text and Syl make it abundantly clear that Kaladin is just not suited for that as he’s a Windrunner and any Skybreaker-like thoughts seem to send him spiraling down.
Ignoring that though, if we look at it solely based on Kaladin judging Elkohar based on leadership/ruling: while the two are not the same, I’d say leadership informs it enough that I wouldn’t consider Kaladin arrogating – there’s not a lot of justification but Kaladin does know leadership enough to see Elkohar as he is just won’t cut it, and as of this point there were no signs at all Elkohar could be getting better. Fortunately that’s not the case later but we’re not there yet and won’t be for quite a while.
While I don’t believe Elhokar will ever learn to become a good leader, there is a chance he’ll learn how to be a good ruler. He makes a mistake in thinking he needs to be more like Kaladin as the sole reason he asks his advice is because he wishes people to admire him, to look up to him. A ruler does not need to be loved, just obeyed. He does not even need to be inspiring, he needs to get the job done.
In that aspect, I still maintain my point, Kaladin is ill-suited for governance or ruling and I sincerely hope his arc won’t take him this way.
This is great, I had nearly missed people disagreeing with me.
Wow! We are now on the great Kaladin debacle. Poor Kaladin! He just cannot catch a break in Words of Radiance. And to think that currently, he is the Captain of the Guards of the Royal Family and the House Kholin. He is being paid a salary equivalent to a lighteye of the 4th dahn.
To put that in perspective, Amaram is 3rd dahn and it is because shardbearers are automatically third dahn. (Moash became third dahn after Kaladin gave him the shardblade. Another thing to consider – Shallan’s father is 4th dahn. He might be considered impoverished by his peers, but he has a estate and lots of land. Shallan is 5th dahn.
And though Kaladin is aware on a cerebral level that he is already equivalent to a fourth dahn, he continues to have this attitude that all lighteyes are against him. When in actuality, he had been given preferential treatment! He has access to the King and the whole royal family! What more privilege does he need? Even Sadeas did not have Kaladin’s access!
Most of you have actually discussed the whys and the wherefores of Kaladin’s behavior. I’ll just add another one, not to criticize but just to have another point of view on Kaladin.
Kaladin was training to be a surgeon. And that is a lonely occupation even today. It is about ONE PERSON and the interaction is one on one. That is, the surgeon and the patient. Oh, we can say that there are nurses and other personnel responsible. But, when it comes to treatment, it is really between the surgeon and the patient. Proof – in the American scenario, medical records are considered confidential.
That said, I am not surprised that Kaladin can have tunnel vision. He was never trained to see the big picture. He just wants what is good for his men and all the people he protects. The others outside that circle, oh well.. who cares???
About being a leader, I am even unsure if Kaladin is a good leader. He has the qualities and of course, he leads his men. But, he seldom delegates. He likes to do things on his own. He has an inner circle he trusts. The rest are outsiders. (This is really a lengthy discussion and I don’t want a wall of text when I’m done, so I will not expound why I believe it is so).
His men and all the Bridge crews are IN AWE of Kaladin. It is a matter of hero worship, not a matter of being a good leader. Don’t get me wrong. Kaladin is a leader, but not a very good one if you really look at the qualities of great leader.
Compared to Dalinar and Adolin who have the respect of their men because they do take care of them and they do lead them to battle, that is true leadership. They might be shardbearers but they can still be killed.
To Kaladin’s men, Kaladin is invincible. That is the difference. Hero worship is what Kaladin gets from his men.
@27
I would love to see that wall o text explaining the reasoning for your belief that Kaladin isn’t a particularly good leader. I’d have to disagree with you but I would still like to read your perspective.
@26: Great post. Yes, you are right, we are going hard on Kaladin, but I find it unbelievably refreshing. Too often comments on Kaladin are awe-struck and made by individuals who only sees his good deeds while treating him as if he were an infallible God. The fact he was central to nearly all plot lines in both books has made people think the entire series will be centered on him. While it may very well be the case, I have been hoping it wouldn’t. The last boring discussion I stumbled on had him “being in danger” because “it is what he does as a Windrunner” only to have “Shallan realize she loves him”.
I realized, at that point in time, the last thing I wanted to read was Kaladin being: imprisoned again or beaten again to near death again. It happened too often already and I personally believe Kaladin learning to assume himself, to simply be part of the action without being the center of it would be incredibly refreshing and an interesting read.
So far, in both books, Kaladin has had the bad habit of being “the rescuer”. In other words, he gets to the battle at the last possible moment just so he could be seen as the most glorious hero of all. Needless to say we are going to have time to discuss this in the later chapters as I have always been annoyed the only event many people tend to remember from the last fight was Kaladin “killing” Szeth. Many forgot about those who were there from the beginning, who fought for hours against monstrous creatures they had limited power to kill in the mist of a Highstorm and without who’s effort, Kaladin would have had no people left to protect.
I may be alone in my thought, but there is nothing I’d love more than reading Kaladin figuring an oath while sitting, simply at his table and pondering. No drama, no “battle I have to joined before it is too late but I need to have my as kick before I can learn the right lesson”. Just something simple. Ah. It would be brilliant.
For the rest, good point you raise with the bridgemen: it is true they are more, currently, in awe of him than anything else. However, to Kaladin’s defense, he did shape them up as a cohesive unit before they figured out he was special. His entire work into WoK did show his leadership qualities, though I agree we did not get to see much of them in WoR.
I also agree characters such as Adolin do not get half the respect they deserve for their skills at leadership. Most readers tend to overlook how Adolin took over an entire army (while not being that much older than Kaladin), has gained the respect of his men, is able to listen to advice and his men’s suggestions when appropriate. He is a good leader, but he seldom gets any respect for it.
However, Kaladin has something else: he is inspiring which I believe is the key.
This being said, I’d like to read your wall of text as well, so shoot.
Re: Cyber-problems
jonah @@.-@
I have the same problem you described when using a HP Mini (admittedly a terribly under-powered device), with IE11 as the browser. The graphics haven’t loaded correctly for the last few days either. However, I have fewer problems (not none!) with machines that have more horsepower, regardless of using the older IE9 or Firefox 42.0. And my Galaxy Notes 3 handles Tor.com reasonably well. Go figure. I tend to agree with Isilel that weaker devices have more problems.
While running this afternoon, more thoughts dropped into my head. Sheiglagh I wanted to further respond to your post where you stated Kaladin has trouble delegating. I was, initially, tempted to agree with you, but I have since realized I would be unfair to Kaladin by doing so.
In WoR, Kaladin is given the command of a 1000 untrained bridgemen with low self-esteem and sense of worth with the imperative order to transform them into a cohesive unit who’s duties would be border patrol and guarding. In that 1000 bridgemen, he has all but 20 trained men he can trust. The task is colossal.
However, despite his limited experience, Kaladin does not buckle in front of the task at hands. He promptly establish a command structure where Teft is his sergeant and has for task to root out the most promising men from each crew and train them. Once trained, these men would then be used to train their own crew.
It was a sound strategy given the circumstances. He couldn’t possibly train 1000 men at the same time, especially not given their background, while maintaining his guarding duties to Dalinar. Delegating the task of training the new men to Teft was a good decision. In that moment, he saw he couldn’t possibly do it all by himself, so he saw fit to appoint perhaps not his best man, but one who has experience as a soldier and one who has an air of command about him. He also saw fit to bring the new trainee down into the chasm so they could get a sense of belonging and it worked. Making appearances to them also served to boost their pride level.
It is true Kaladin is seen struggling with his command all through the book, but I suspect it was mostly because his resources were stretched very thin.
In comparison, Adolin is given the control of a well oiled army comprised of career soldiers who hardly need him to see to their daily tasks.
I must thus conclude that Kaladin has shown to be a true leader, even if he struggles at time. He did manage to turn a bunch of men everybody saw as irrecoverable as a force to be reckoned. He has shown he was able to delegate, but he suffers from not having many men to delegate to. I certainly hope Kaladin’s moral will remain high into the next book, as I’d like to see what he can do when he does not spend the entire story complaining on how life is terrible.
I still say that Kaladin is NOT A VERY GOOD LEADER. Oh, HE IS A LEADER alright, just NOT A VERY GOOD ONE. The same way that Elhokar is king, just not a very good king.
I do not question their positions, or how they got there. I just question on how they are doing on their jobs. Think of me as an efficiency expert when I write this post. As for Adolin, let us discuss his leadership qualities when it is time.
Back to Kaladin and I will discuss him in comparison with Elhokar. It is only fair because we have been accusing Elhokar of so many things but we (as in ALL of us here, including me) as a group always give Kaladin a break on every mistake he does. But never Elhokar.
The similarities between Elhokar and Kaladin:
They have Dalinar on their side. – Though almost everyone in Roshar believe that Elhokar is a bad king and should not be king, Dalinar is always giving him the benefit of the doubt. He gives the same treatment to Kaladin. Though people including Adolin questioned Dalinar why Kaladin was made the Captain of the Cobalt guard, Dalinar continue to believe in Kaladin. And he did not do it out of appreciation for saving his life, his son and what is leff of their army. Dalinar showed appreciation by giving up his shardblade in exchange for the bridgemen’s freedom, all 1000 of them. Dalinar believes in Kaladin will be a good Captain even with the big chip on his shoulder the size of Texas. Dalinar believes Elhokar has the makings of a good king; he just needs a little more experience.
Kaladin and Elhokar both benefit from Dalinar’s sponsorship. Without Dalinar propping up Kaladin, he would never get the respect of the other officers simply because Kaladin is too acerbic. As for Elhokar, without Dalinar supporting Elhokar, there will be no more Alethkar as a kingdom. It would have broken up a long time ago.
Both men listen to bad advice.The Roshone affair is both Kaladin and Elhokar’s undoing. Elhokar listened to bad advice from Roshone. And Kaladin listened to bad advice from Moash. Because Elhokar listened to Roshone, two people died in prison. Elhokar did not kill them. He did not order their execution. It just happened that way.
Roshone was sent to Hearthstone. And it became a living hell for Kaladin and his family. Tien died. Roshone did not kill Tien but his actions resulted to Tien’s death in a war that he should have not been sent.
So, for Elhokar’s mistake, two families suffered and three people died. Moash’s grandparents and Tien. Elhokar did not kill them but for some strange reason, Moash and Kaladin believe that it is all Elhokar’s fault, as if Elhokar had control on what happened in the dungeon and what happened in Hearthstone.
If Elhokar was assassinated, there will be an ensuing civil war where thousands will die. Of course, Kaladin would have not killed those people because it is a civil war.
Yet, we call Elhokar a weak king and leader because of the Roshone affair. But, we do not call Kaladin weak because he had a hand in plotting the King’s assassination.
We call Kaladin awesome, and say what a great leader he is. Well, from where I’m sitting, Kaladin is as weak as Elhokar as a leader because of their choices in advisers. What is good for the gander is good for the goose, right?
Both Elhokar and Kaladin are whiners. It is very interesting to note that most of us (actually, I will say all of us) here see Elhokar as a whiner, but very few of us see Kaladin as one. (I’m hoping I’m not the only one who sees Kaladin as a whiner.)
Kaladin whines all the time to Syl. Never mind that he just learned how to fly. He whines to Syl that Amaram is still alive while Tien stays dead. Never mind that he is the Captain of the Cobalt Guard and the first ever darkeye to hold that position and rise to that position. Kaladin whines that he had to guard lighteye. Nevermind that Dalinar had allowed him to listen in to high level strategic meetings. Kaladin whines that Amaram is a friend of Dalinar.
Kaladin keeps on seeing life as half empty and just whines on and on. I did not see that on my first read. But after listening to WoR for the second time (this is my second through on the audio book), I began to hear Kaladin whining on his POV. He is like a spoiled brat who is just not happy unless he gets everything he wants.
I can still write more but then, I will sound as if I am whining. I guess what I am trying to say is that Kaladin is not that awesome as a person. As a character in a book, I think he is very well developed and I like following what is happening to him.
But, if Kaladin is a real person and I happen to work with him or for him, I will be awed with his almost magical accomplishment being a KR, but I will not respect him the same way I respect Dalinar and Adolin in terms of being a leader. (Again, I will discuss Adolin when his time comes. And no, I’m not saying it because he is my favorite).
This might not mean much to many in here and some of you who might understand will probably say, what is that got to do with the price of gasoline.
As I write this post, I thought of President Jimmy Carter and President Richard Nixon. Carter is a very likeable guy. He has a great smile and as a person, he has accomplished so much before and after his Presidency. But, Jimmy Carter has gone down in history as one of the weakest U.S. President in the 20th century mainly due to the Iran hostage crisis. A likeable person but a very weak leader.
On the other hand, there is President Richard Nixon who was a very strong leader. Though it was unpopular, he got the U.S. out of Vietnam. Though Vietnam was accepted as a loss, the U.S. did not suffer in its reputation as a military might. But, Nixon made a very big mistake called Watergate. Though he won a second term in office, he did not serve it. He had to resign. Up to today, many think of Nixon as a crook. A good and strong President but still a crook.
There really is no comparison between these two real leaders with our fictional Elhokar and Kaladin as leaders. They are so different. I just mentioned it because it is all about perception.
I am not a political pundit. In fact, the presidency of Nixon and Carter are just history lessons for me. Yet somehow, I would like to give these two men the benefit of the doubt, at least for my sake, no matter how history had presented them to me. They might not be always awesome the whole time they were in office. But, there had to be some awesomeness to them. After all, they got voted as President.
To go back to Elhokar and Kaladin, like the Carter and Nixon, they might not be awesome all the time, but they have their awesome moments. Yet, somehow, Kaladin is a great leader but Elhokar is not though there are so many similarities between them.
And the reason – PERCEPTION!
So, is Kaladin a leader? Yes he is a leader, but not a very good one. So, is Elhokar king? Yes, he is, though not a very good one. Was Jimmy Carter a good president? He he was though a very weak one. Was Nixon a good President? Yes he was, though he was a crook.
Just my thoughts.
P.S. I believe both Kaladin and Elhokar have the makings of being great leaders. Both just need seasoning. And since there will be 10 books, then one day, we will see both of them in their awesomeness. :-)
I agree you have a few points. I’ll let others react to it before steering the pot too hard.
However, I’d like to say there are many readers who indeed find Kaladin whiny. You may not have personally stumbled on threads where it was discussed, but not everyone who reads SA is in awe of Kaladin. Most loved him in WoK, but he got on many’s bad side in WoR due to his incessant moping, his constant complaining and his inability to simply look back and stare happily at what he has accomplished. Most of it is likely due to his depression, but he makes an aggravating read at times. In that regards you aren’t the first one to speak it up nor is it the first time I hear someone mention it.
However, you may be the first person I have read who made the argument Kaladin is not a good leader. The link between Elhokar and Kaladin is interesting. I sure don’t agree with all of it, but there is some truths in it.
Edit: Some minor thoughts while I agree both Kaladin and Elhokar are whiny, I’d say Kaladin, at least, has reasons to act in such way even if it is not always pleasant.
That Kaladin is a whin
Well, after the week from hell at work I’m finally able to get caught up and involved in the discussion.
Kaladin and Elhokar are interested case studies to me. The thing is Elhokar knows that he is insufficient as king and it legitimately bothers him, that’s why he splits his time three ways between A.) automatically deferring to the ideas and will of Dalinar (who to be fair most characters agree is as imposing as the the sight of an oncoming hurricane) B.) being jealous of Kaladin or Dalinar’s successes/lashing out at them. And C.) openly asking them for advice on how to be a better leader.
The man is not a good king. But to be honest. that in and of itself doesn’t make him a terrible person. It just goes to show you that inherited rule has unreliable and often dangerous results. At least he’s trying to improve himself.
Kaladin is well he’s a freaking teenager. He’s smart, kind and has had a lot of terrible things happen to him, so he often acts older than he actually is. But he has the typical whiny entitled “the world is against me” chip on his shoulder and he automatically thinks he knows better than his elders.
He shouldn’t have been thrown in jail. Dalinar or Adolin should have punched him in the mouth and told him to man up. I can’t pretend to have faced even a tiny fraction of the horrible things he has, but Dalinar’s telling him off was easily the second kindest thing he’s ever done for the man (behind freeing him from Sadeas at the cost of his shard blade but actually ahead of making him captain in my mind).
One of the greatest truths that a young man can learn is that the world isn’t against him, and just as importantly, it’s not for him either. For the most part, the world doesn’t even know you exist, and it doesn’t really care either way.
The world doesn’t owe you anything. If you want something you have to go out and earn it. And even then, you might fail. Nothing is promised, nothing is guaranteed, but if you work hard and ingratiate yourself to others, you can eventually come out ahead.
At this point Kaladin seems like he knows that in his head, but not his heart. What he needs isn’t more school of hard knocks, it’s the realization that life sometimes sucks for other people too, but that comes later.
@36: I appreciate reading your comment, especially the part where you state Kaladin acts like a teenager. I have been annoyed at reading other discussions where he is described as being mature while other characters are deemed immature when in fact, his “maturity” only expresses itself in a limited facets of his life.
I had once tried to analyze Kaladin and it struck me he has a strong “rebellious streak”. He believes he knows best, he refuses to take counsel from those who arguably know better than him and he only follows rules when he sees fit. Rules, conventions, laws only are warranted when they agree with him, if not, then they are unfair and need to be transgressed.
I too loved how Dalinar talked Kaladin down in a much needed conversation. I suspect he never had to deal with such insubordination from his own sons. Oddly enough, the most “rebellious” of the Kholin boys likely is Renarin and not Adolin, the conformist, who is the complete opposite of Kaladin in this regards.
As for Elhokar, I have not gotten the feeling he was truly trying. It seems more as he was acknowledging the situation, but he has yet to take any concrete actions towards bettering himself. He is also completely wrong if he believes what he needs is Kaladin’s guidance as what Kaladin does best, inspiring people, is not something you can teach. I also believe Elhokar is a spoiled child who has grown into a spoiled man: his reaction to being frustrated is to have a tantrum.
Dalinar’s will… is as strong as a mountain. The only character we have seen able to withstand him is Adolin.
I’d also like to add to the mix this idea: Kaladin is mostly frustrating because we have a general sense of what direction he should be heading. So, when Dalinar comes down hard on him or Kaladin shows his actual age, we see that as Kaladin needing experience (which he does). Kaladin needs to learn to work within the system to accomplish his goals because, while he can do so outside the system, that’s not what will work out within the story.
Argh I have a hard time phrasing it. I guess what it is, is that Kaladin is somewhat in a crux between being able to be a positive image of what darkeyes can do and just being a militant rebel. I’d argue that context being ignored the choices are very near to being equal: human history has shown that, while we romanticize and remember much more fondly those who make peaceful strides for social change, more aggressive figures often do have their role to play in triggering the changes. But within the context of the story, they aren’t equal for Kaladin, because well…Desolation is coming.
(Another way of putting it: if anyone here knows the Mass Effect game series, Kaladin is somewhat locked into needing to go the Paragon route – other characters can take care of those Renegade options).
As to whether or not Kaladin is whiny, I give him a pass but that’s because, even besides his legitimate problems, being in a character’s head shows us a lot of thoughts that he probably wouldn’t express/that change as they process. Admittedly, can see why some people still feel of him as whiny, but I wouldn’t apply the word to him.
Well…except for a couple specific sequences, including a very notable one later on. And I have a very divided opinion on that.
As to whether or not Kaladin is whiny, I give him a pass but that’s because, even besides his legitimate problems, being in a character’s head shows us a lot of thoughts that he probably wouldn’t express/that change as they process.
I believe you are underlining what must be my greatest issue with Kaladin: we are too much into his head which exacerbates his every thought in a, sometimes, unpleasing way. I personally wish for more 3rd person’s perspective on Kaladin. I believe it would make the character fuller, rounder and more appreciated (not to say he is not appreciated, but the fact is many of us are annoyed about certain things).
I also wanted to say I am proud to take part of this reread. I am sorely going to miss it when it ends (and I will slowly die for the year and a half I still have to wait for SA3). Sheilagh’s post is controversial and would have generated a large amount of rant on other medias, but here, we are able to discuss it in a polite and respectful manner. We are able to state certain things without being talked down for it. I appreciate this. So thank you everyone.
wcarter @36 – ::applauds::
Also: Gepeto @39 – I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments regarding the reread. I love the community here; even when we disagree, we can disagree strongly and still treat one another with respect and courtesy.
It’s looking like there will be more of a lapse between finishing the WoR reread and the release of SA3 than we’d hoped, which is kind of a bummer, but it will get us a better book in the end. I’m still planning to do a Warbreaker reread when we finish this. Partly, I want to look at it again with the knowledge of where Vasher is going (and, now that we know, why Warbreaker was written in the first place), and partly I think it will be really fun to do a reread where we can draw on Brandon’s annotations. It will give us a very different flavor!
And of course, we’ve got another new book coming out in January, and he’s still making noises about doing that Lift novella. So we won’t be completely high and dry… :)
@39 and 40: I agree, this is one of the most pleasant communities I’ve encountered online.
@39: I also wonder if it doesn’t help that Kaladin’s role, at least throughout book 2, means he needs to think about the other characters a lot (as he needs to bodyguard them). The other thing Kaladin can focus on, building up the bridgemen, is something we see some of but mostly as highlights in between. Shallan, Adolin, and Dalinar all have bigger things to focus on (not more important, though, as their safety is paramount).
I don’t mind how much Kaladin there is, but I would welcome if more scenes where other characters are present came from their perspectives: it feels like the major moments where a character’s perspective on Kaladin changes we tend to miss out on in favor of seeing before and after, which is nice in its own way but sometimes I would like to see them have that shift as well. We’re coming up on probably the biggest example later on in this part.
Sadly book 3 Kaladin moved away from all the major characters we currently had so who knows how much opportunity for that we’ll even get. We’ll still have Syl but I kind of agree with @Wetlandernw, I prefer not seeing from a spren’s perspective, at least for now, although I suspect down the line it might fit more once we get to KRs who have fully progressed their bonds).
@40: I still fully support a Warbreaker reread once Words of Radiance finished. And not just because Lightsong is one of my favorite Sanderson characters…although I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t a significant part.
@@@@@ 37 Gepeto
Thanks. Although I do have to slightly differ with your opinion on two points.
1. I don’t think Adolin is the only person who can ignore Dalinar’s imposing…Dalinarness? Though you might not have mean that literally either. In any case, Navani seems to be thoroughly uncowed. Obviously in love, but uncowed. And Elhokar does call out Dalinar once for making decisions and giving orders like he himself was king too often.
2. While I absolutely agree with you that Elhokar hasn’t yet done anything substantial to change other than he has admitted he’s inadequate. He has done that, and it’s step one to solving a problem. It will take time and effort for him to start making positive changes–if he ever does–but I’m willing to believe he is sincere about wanting to improve for now until additional books show whether or not he is.
YES!!! Let’s go for a Warbreaker reread. My favorite characters are Siri and the God King. They are so cute together. Call me a romantic, but those two put Adolin and Shallan to shame when it comes to their interaction.
Don’t get me wrong. I enjoy Shallan and Adolin when they are together. But, Siri and the God King are priceless. I won’t say more just in case some of us here have not read the book.
@@@@@ Alice – I can’t wait for the Warbreaker reread. :-)
While Kaladin’s depressive and self-pitying moods can be frustrating, it is largely an internal matter rather than how he appears to others (his conversations with Syl reflecting those moods, I consider internal). To others he appears to be the confident leader who shoulders all responsibilities that are placed thereon. He is every bit the leader in the mold of Dalinar. Both have made errors, however. Dalinar’s cost him the lives of most of his army (relying on his interpretation of a dream), while Kaladin’s error in allowing the assassination plot to proceed could have had disastrous consequences if he hadn’t stepped in at the last possible moment to protect Elhokar against overwhelming opposition. Elhokar, in contrast, is not a leader. He is introspective and passive except for the instance of anger towards Kaladin when he became irrational. He has no role other than the nominal kingship and spends his days drinking and partying. There is yet hope for the man, however, in that he recognizes his shortcomings and even asks Kaladin, the strange, darkeyed leader, for guidance. His observations about Kaladin’s strange power shows intelligence and may hint at a budding connection to Cryptic spren when he speaks about a pattern to Kaladin’s heroic deeds (besides seeing them at the edge of his vision until Kaladin appeared).
I don’t believe that Kaladin will be long separated from the other principal characters in book 3. He will return from his mission to rescue his parents, whether successful or not. If unsuccessful, he will need Shallan’s help in overcoming his grief and feelings of failure. If successful, Shallan will need his help in deciding what to do about her Ghostblood involvement and the information that she has learned. Both will have to decide what to do about Adolin who will probably be exiled from Urithiru once his slaying of Sadeas becomes known. Too bad, progress in writing the new book is taking longer than anticipated. I sure hope that Brandon and Tor are not shortchanging what should be his magnum opus.
STBLST @44 – The decision to delay the release to 2017, if that should happen, will be exactly NOT shortchanging the writing. Brandon is committed to writing the best story he can (which is generally pretty fine!), and his assistants are committed to not letting it publish until it’s had the level of review and revision it deserves; pretty sure Tor is down with all of that.
Off topic, and a bit late in the day, happy St. Nicholas Day to those who celebrate it, and happy Hanukkah to those who celebrate that. We found some good stuff in our stockings this morning, speaking for myself. :)
I sometimes wish this reread had a like button.
Now Sheiglagh has weighed in on Kaladin’s leadership quality so I will throw my hat into the ring as well. As Gepeto mentioned, inspiring others is perhaps his greatest asset leadership-wise. I’m not sure if anyone disputes this but it seems fairly obvious. When grading Kaladin’s leadership abilities I tend to look at other things he does well. First and foremost he is effective. Given situations where he hasn’t the resources or support of his command he still finds ways to accomplish the mission. Second and equally important, he takes care of his troops. He spends his money on medical supplies and saves men others would have left for dead. He is resourceful. The side carry was a disaster because he failed to take into account the entire battle picture, yet even that failure shows that he does not cry about not having the equipment to succeed in a given task, rather he uses what he does have to its greatest advantage. Lastly, he is accountable. He does not hide from his fuck ups, doesn’t try to pass blame, he takes his lumps and learns from his mistakes. I don’t believe he’s ever made the same mistake on the battlefield twice. Yes he inspires his people. Yes there is some hero worship involved in the troops under his command due to his unique talents. But its the other things he does that showed he earned their respect way before they started drooling over him. He leads from the front, and did so long before he realized he had powers.
He is not perfect. He needs seasoning as a leader as well. In his defense, the military structure he was brought up in, the traditions of the Alethi don’t really lend well to his leadership style. He belonged to Amaram first, then Sadeas. Neither one of them saw value in him or the men he commanded. The Kholins are different. I believe he would have been much better off if he would have started his career with them. And alot of that angst against Lighteyes would not exist. Remember, he didn’t grow up hating them, he was betrayed by one that everyone said was honorable. Soul scarred, that’s hard to heal.
@46 EvilMonkey, I clearly agree with your assessment about Kaladin’s leadership abilities and the emotional scars left by his former experiences. Let’s review his life since that fateful moment when he volunteered to serve in Amaram’s army at age 15. Remember, he did so only as a means of protecting his drafted kid brother, Tien, who was unsuited for fighting or life in the military. He also harbored some illusions as to the honor of being a warrior in an army under the ostensibly honorable, Amaram. He soon found that he was unable to protect Tien from being deliberately targeted and killed by an opposing Lighteyes. After that trauma (remember how he held on to his brother’s body pleading for him not to die), he became an expert spearman with leadership qualities so that he was made a squad leader despite his youth. He then strove to protect his squad and to adopt the very young and inexperienced soldiers into his squad for their protection. Then the shardbearer assassin, Shallan’s big brother, Helaran, appeared on the battlefield to kill Amaram. Almost all in the squad were killed In the course of fighting Helaran, but Kaladin prevailed, killed Helaran, and rescued Amaram from death. The reward? Amaram decided to keep the shards for himself and had the remaining members of Kaladin’s crew killed in front of him, while Kaladin was branded a slave – all in order to hide his means of acquiring the shards. Kaladin certainly had reason to be despondent. All those that he sought to protect were now dead, while the supposed honorable Amaram was seen to be a murderer of his own men. Furthermore, his attempts at escaping slavery had all met with failure and the death of the other escapees. He then is sold to Sadeas’ bridgecrews where life is grueling and very short. He becomes extremely despondent and seeks suicide. He is dissuaded from that course by Syl who inspires him to try to help the Bridge 4 crew. He does, and transforms that crew into the most capable bridgemen and the most survivable. His leadership, skill (both in bridge matters, surgery, and medicine), and inventiveness were effective even before his surgebinding powers first manifested. Afterwards, the admiration turned to veneration. His crew followed him even in the seemingly hopeless and suicidal effort at rescuing the trapped remnants of Dalinar’s army. That success resulted in Dalinar acquiring all of Sadeas’ bridgemen, with Kaladin at their head. He was now given the seemingly impossible task of training dispirited bridgemen and transforming them into an elite guarding force. He is in the process of accomplishing that task in book 2. If he complains to Syl about his alleged ‘brokenness’, that is precipitated by the presence of Amaram and the past traumas that are thereby invoked.
STBLST @47 – You left out one critical item.
While I agree that Amaram is a rat in many ways, he didn’t take the Shards for himself until the rightful owner of them, Kaladin, walked away without making sure that they were disposed of as he wished.
@@@@@ Alice – I agree with you on this one.
What bothers me about Kaladin is that he never left Hearthstone, in the context of “You can take a boy out of Hearthstone but you cannot take Hearthstoneout of the boy.” And, I’m mentioning this with a negative connotation instead of the usual positive.
In Hearthstone, with only one lightyes family, Kaladin’s family being second nahn is actually second to the top of the totem pole. Taking that into consideration, I truly believe that in the beginning, before he joined Amaram’s army, Kaladin is not prejudiced against lighteyes. Even with Roshone’s meanness, it was not enough to make him prejudiced against lighteyes. He was just pissed off with Roshone.
When Tien died, everything changed for Kaladin. Though Tien’s death made him grow up about certain things, Kaladin’s attitude of being on top of the totem pole did not change. He still believed that people should follow him simply because he is Kaladin. He never really realized that it was a different ball game out there.
He was so arrogant that he just gives his shards away (he has reasons, I understand), but like what Alice said, Kaladin did not care if it was disposed of properly! Kaladin was acting like he was a member of the royal family wherein there are servants and sycophants who will do what he said simply because he said so.
Either Kaladin is so naive that he did not even think that there will be people who will covet the shards. If he was still naive, even after 4 years in the army, then he never really grew up. He still has tunnel vision. He never saw beyond what is in front of him.
And though he had accomplished so much, his tunnel vision is the reason why I cannot describe Kaladin as a great leader. He is leader, but not a very good one, nor a great one. He still needs seasoning and hopefully, we will see it in SA3. Until Kaladin gets off his high horse that he is above others, he will never be a great leader in my eyes.
@48 Wetlandernw, I fail to see why my omission is considered so significant and an indication of a failing on the part of Kaladin. It’s true, of course, that Kaladin refused to even touch the shardblade that had killed his men – and this is to his great credit. He is a man of principle who will not be swayed even when there is an opportunity to gain an object worth a kingdom and the elevated status that goes with it. He is still, however, under the illusion that Amaram is a man of honor who will listen to his subsequent instruction as to the disposition of the shards that are rightfully his. I don’t believe that Amaram would have acted any differently if Kaladin had designated Coreb as the intended recipient of the shards – perhaps not even if Kaladin, himself, had elected to take them. He did, after all, have all the unbiased witnesses to the killing of the shardbearer killed – except for Kaladin who was made a slave so that his protestations would not be believed.
Rosa Parks and co., anyone? Kaladin is objecting to systemic, arbitrary racism and making a public stand that results in imprisonment. Sounds familiar to me…
Of course, his methods, manner, and timing are dubious, but the principle and the sentiment should still track rather neatly.
@Porphyrogenitus
I refrained from mentioning Rosa Parks so far in order to not bring in real world politics, but I agree completely. Rosa Parks is whom I also thought of in this scene.
I think Gepeto mentioned the rebellious streak of Kaladin‘s. I really like and respect that rebellious streak. Receiving punishment for something done out of rebellion does not make someone wrong. Quite the opposite: Their punisher is showing their own cruelty.
I really disliked Dalinar‘s saying that Kaladin is supposed to prove himself in order to change Alethi prejudices. Dalinar certainly did not have to prove himself ten times over to advance a quarter as far as someone else has been born – so who is he to say that? He has no idea what he‘s talking about. This makes it seem as if Dalinar just does not want Kaladin to make any trouble for him, Dalinar.
I think it’s worth to point out that there is an argument that the exiling of Roshone and its subsequent consequences for Kaladin is Dalinars fault and not Elhokars. If I read the text correctly, Dalinar made Elhokar exile Roshone … Yes of course that wouldn’t have happend if Elhokar hadn’t listend to him in the first place but still.
The fact that Kaladin doesn’t “spread out” the blame is – to me – a strong indicator that Kaladin indeed trusts Dalinar, even if he doesn’t tell him everything. – so no overuse of a plot device and I don’t thinkt it would have made a difference. I don’t even think this connection would have made Dalinar distrustful of Kaladin concerning Elhokar like STBLST @8 proposed, but that’s just a guess.
Sorry if I just repeated anymone, I’ve only skimmed some of the comments.
@42: Adolin is the only person we see openly butting head with Dalinar and withstanding his will. I agree Navani does the same, but she is his concubine… it is somehow more relevant when Adolin does it as anyone else has a hard time refusing Dalinar anything.
While Elhokar takes his own decisions at times, he is never seen standing up in open confrontation in front of witnesses to Dalinar. Unless I am mistaken, Adolin is the only one who does it and succeeds at it.
@47: I disagree Kaladin only joined the army to protect Tien: Kaladin had shown a great interest into becoming a soldier prior to the event. The only reason he does not volunteered is he felt bad leaving his father without an apprentice and claims, had Tien been acceptable, he would have left to become a soldier. So while the decision he made for essentially for Tien, he also was fulfilling his life-long dream.
@48 and others: I agree about the Shards. I agree Kaladin leaving them behind as if there were dirty pieces of crap to be discarded proved an arrogance and an open contempt towards artifacts said to be worth more than a kingdom. I personally believe the second he left them there, he denied any claimed he ever had on them. Had he picked them up to give them to Coreb from the start, I believe the story would have gone down differently, but he didn’t.
I personally don’t buy the argument “those Shards killed his men” to justify his disdain: spears likely also killed many of him men, swords as well and arrows. He is fighting a war: his men will die. Why showing disgust towards the most valuable and impressionable weapon of all? We know why, but his reaction is frankly above what should be expected. Shallan and Dalinar are not seen being this disrespectful towards the Shards.
So essentially, while Amaram is a scumbag to have killed his men for the Shards, Kaladin is an arrogant fool for leaving them behind and thinking he still had to the right to disposed of them as he sees fit.
@49: I agree Kaladin has a “holier than thou” attitude at times which can be aggravating. I personally hope his story arc will take less POV time coming into book 3.
@52: I believe there is a time to be rebellious and there is a time to take your hole. Kaladin has been awarded a position no other darkeyes before him ever received: it was a great honor. Now was the time to take his hole and do his job as best as he can such as to prove them all his eye color does not matter. Dalinar is essentially right in this scene: there and now was not the time to rebel against conventions and rules, no matter how unfair they may be. The distinction is however lost to Kaladin.
Sheiglegh @49
1. Even after Tien died Kaladin doesn’t turn against all Lighteyes. He blames himself, using that self-blame to better himself individually so he could rise high enough to protect those like Tien. He wallows and grieves in the moment, but instead of letting the moment ruin him he strives to be better.
2. Self confidence can often be mistaken for arrogance. He recognized that there are things he can do on the battlefield that no one else can. Arrogance would mean that he looks down on everyone due to his prowess. I am not sure we’ve ever really seen that from him. Rather, we see him deflecting praise, showering his men with it instead of trying to glorify himself. We all know it wasn’t arrogance that made him refuse thoseshards. Bottom line, he didn’t want them. An honorable man would have honored his wishes in dispensing the shards Kaladin earned in the way he was asked. Amaram was not honorable. Further, he was incapable of seeing honor in another, so he betrayed Kaladin to keep from being betrayed later. Kaladin earned shards from his efforts in the dueling arena and said the same thing to Dalinar. Dalinar honored his wishes.
3. As I stated previously, Kaladin is not perfect. He really does need seasoning. He will get that with a command structure he can trust. That tunnel vision was born from him being idealistic, from believing in something bigger than himself. He has to temper that with reality but I hope he never loses it completely. If he becomes an ultimate realist then he becomes that Sergeant that put Tien on the front line because it was practical.
4. Lastly, my ultimate judgement of leadership is, would I want to be under his command? Would I want to have him defending a position I care about or attack a position I consider vital? He passes all my criteria for being an excellent leader and I see in him the potential to become one of the greats. His shortcomings as a person and as a leader don’t disqualify from excellence and eventual greatness for no leader, even the greats have their flaws, their weaknesses. No leader is perfect. Based on what I’ve seen from him, I would be honored to serve under his command and estatic if he were one of my soldiers. I could trust him to take his unit and accomplish any objectives I had set for him. Of course YMMV. In the end we may just have to agree to disagree. Either way, awesome convo. That goes for all yall.
@54
Concerning the shard discard;
His reasoning for treating the shards like trash is mearly a justification. The bond’s influence is at work. At this point in the narrative he had no idea he’d been chosen; he was just trying to make sense of his aversion to and disgust for what should have been a prized artifact based on the limited info at his disposal. And while it’s true that he lost any claim to them when he left them on the battlefield (at least technically), I think its unfair to catagorize his method of throwing them away as arrogance. Foolish yes, but not arrogant. He never thought he was too good for the shards, they were repulsive to him. He recognized their value, otherwise he would not have tried to gift them to one of his squad leaders. And as far as others coveting them, why would he expect a Lighteyes to look at them in the same way as a common Darkeyed soldier? To him, he sees Lighteyes as having everything already. They already have the land and titles that come with owning a shardblade. Maybe he’d suspect it of Roshone based on experience but not of Amaram, the honorable one. Lastly, I have a small theory as to why Kaladin reacts so strongly to the blade when Shallan and Dalinar do not. 1. Shallan has held a shardblade before, a living one. To her its a common thing to see. Dalinar has wielded one for over 20 years. When he feels the aversion to the blade when previously their was none, he attributes it to his suspected deteriorating mental state, not that he’s a candidate for Radienthood. Kaladin on the other hand knows about them but has never truly been exposed to one before his fight with Helaran. His first impression of them is disgust. Also, his reaction mirrors Syl. Her extreme revulsion bleeds through to him. It had to be strong; she remembers that revulsion even when she had the sentience of a wimdspren.
Now he does have his arrogant moments. The instance that comes to mind is the training with Zahel. But him tossing the shards isn’t one of his arrogant moments in my opinion.
@Gepeto
Here is where I disagree: It’s true that Kaladin has been awarded a position that few darkeyes received before him. But Dalinar did not do this out of the goodness of his heart or to perpetuate social justice: He did it because he lacked men after the disastrous battle and because he had even fewer men he trusted. And Dalinar is not giving a free gift by having Kaladin as bodyguard – Kaladin is working very hard and doing a great job of protecting the Kholins from bodily harm.
So IMO Kaladin ought to be only as honored as any lighteyes who’s been given a high position for certain reasons and is fulfilling his function well. Everything else is, IMO an unfair expectation and doing so would almost mean that Kaladin considers himself as lesser than a lighteyes, which he has never done.
And one can say that there is a time to rebel against convention and prejudice. But when will be the time to do it? Dalinar has never given Kaladin any clue as to when that time will come.
Will it be after the next desolation? When the Parshendi are destroyed? When Elhokar is the great king he’ll (IMO) never be? When Sadeas is finally defeated? When the highprinces unite in common struggle?
It’s very possible that waiting for Dalinar would mean that that time never comes around. Dalinar is nearly as high in rank as it is possible to be as an Alethi – why should he care about this? Why should Kaladin believe he cares?
I see Kaladin as someone who is more emotionally driven: his moods, his feelings, his instincts etc. I don’t mean he can’t think logically or can’t plan ahead, just that those emotional aspects are what he’s best at and what he relies upon the most, particularly in a crisis. In this regard, he is pretty much the opposite of Jasnah, who is heavy on logic, reasoning and analysis.
Most of Kaladin’s mistakes in this book are because he overly depends on those emotions, feelings and instincts. He doesn’t trust Dalinar as much as he should. He’s too quick to assume the worst of Lighteyes. He tends to overlook issues amongst his men. Down in the chasms he assumes he knows which way to go.
So I would say that the primary motivation for Kaladin rejecting the Shards is the emotional impact it had on him – seeing his comrades killed with ease while he couldn’t save them makes him hate the Shards. He doesn’t want to become a killing machine either. Putting it another way he treats them like WMDs (weapons of mass destruction). He doesn’t throw them away but rejects them for his own personal use – giving them to his most trusted comrade. He agrees to wield Shallan’s Blade because it’s temporary and purely for protection.
I would say that Kaladin’s issues with Elhokar are emotional even if he tries to logically explain them – he’s already come to his conclusions but he can’t justify to himself killing Elhokar (or allowing him to be killed) just because he hates him so tries to wrap it up in some slippery logic. The way he gets out of his conundrum is emotional too – he connects Elhokar with Tien from Dalinar’s point of view, finally realising that his point of view has been too narrow. If he really believed that Elhokar’s death was for the best for everyone and that was his real motivation then his personal realisation (connecting Elhokar with Tien) wouldn’t affect his following actions.
Anyone see any way to justify Kaladin’s actions in chapter 5 to the Lighteyed news crier? Anyone believe he’d have treated a Darkeyed news crier the same? This is before Amaram turns up too.
To be clear, this is just character analysis – trying to give examples and a general framework for explaining them. If I didn’t like reading Kaladin I wouldn’t be able to enjoy the book overall. Watching Kaladin overcome his all-too-human problems is very interesting.
PS I agree with others that having more perspectives in the book would have been nice – more perspectives of Kaladin and more perspectives of Shallan from other characters.
Re: Kaladin’s Shardblade
I disagree with people who say that Kaladin didn’t see to the Shardblade. When asked he did state what he wanted to happen to the Shardblade. It was suppose to go to one of his men. Kaladin was in shock from loosing so many men but even so he was pushed to make a choice on what to do for the Shardblade. I think the image of him not caring of it being disposed of properly is a bit harsh here. He couldn’t bring himself to take up the blade and while he was still in state of shock he was pushed to name someone else to pick up the blade. I’m sure that had Kaladin given the blade to Amaram, the same outcome would have happened because Amaram wanted to assure that the blade remained in his possession. The branding iron was already hot when the order was given. It wasn’t a spur-of-the-moment decision by Amaram but a planed outcome. Kaladin had no say in what was going to that Shard it didn’t matter that he won them. I don’t think that this instance should be used as a measure of Kaladin’s leadership abilities because to me it doesn’t really have much to say about Kaladin and it’s more about Amaram.
The other thing for Kaladin is that he hasn’t had the same training in leadership as characters like Dalinar, Elhokar and Adolin have had. The other three knew they were going to be leaders of men and therefore have had more training in how to go about that task. Adolin especially. Because of this when Kaladin stumbles in the leadership arena I tend to take it as he’s still learning. But when Elhokar makes a mistake I probably judge him a bit harsher because I would think he would have been taught better. Kaladin isn’t a great leader of men but I do think he is a natural leader of men and he could be great if he learns the right lessons fast enough.
@57: Based on the Dalinar’s excerpt from Stormlight Archive 3, I’d say he has a reputation for giving its due to those who deserve it, independently of their eye color. In that aspect, I doubt he treated Kaladin much differently than he would have any other soldier in similar circumstances. What he gave him was priceless: he chance to prove his worthiness in a prestigious position despite not having the right eye color. He even went as far as to obliged every single one of Kaladin, non-conventional, requests such as to remove from the chain of command of any lighteyed. In other words, Kaladin does not have to obey to anyone besides Dalinar Kholin. He made that very clear in his first conversation to Adolin which has launched the hostilities between the two…
I’d say that when it comes to “breaking rule” and “transgressing society”, Kaladin has gotten more than a head start.
We must also take into consideration he has been holding his position for all but a few weeks. It is rather fast to start to giving him praises for his work: he is barely starting. I also disagree he is doing a good job: he betrayed the Kholins, he refused to prosecute a known traitor, worst he gave him Shards and he ends up tying himself up in a plot to kill the king. Even if he hadn’t agreed to it, he has still been informed of such plot and he refused to share the information to Dalinar, so no, IMO, Kaladin doesn’t deserve the high praise just yet. Were Dalinar to ever find out, Kaladin could be hanged out for treason. Of course, he also did well in training his men, saving Adolin, protecting Elhokar and killing Szeth, but his grave mistakes highlights the fact he isn’t ready for more.
Kaladin is essentially a man who took a huge risk and rescued a doomed army. For his effort, he earned his liberty. For his promises at worthiness, he was granted a high ranked position. Asking for more is presumptuous: he has not earned more, he has not proven himself for more, which goes back to myself saying: “Now was not the right time to rebel, not when you have just secured great advancement.”.
I essentially support Dalinar here: “Do your job well for more than 3 weeks and then we’ll see.”. I thus don’t like Kaladin when he gets entitled, when he requests for what he perceives is his dues and more importantly, when he refuses to see all he has accomplished. The cup is always empty for him and even if Dalinar were to give him the pitcher, he’d likely still find ways to complain it isn’t shiny enough.
So as others have said, he needs some maturing as the attitude he currently has likely won’t get him the results he seeks.
I agree that Dalinar has given Kaladin some unusual concessions – I‘d almost forgotten that. That‘s quite to be commended on Dalinar‘s part.
But „the chance to prove yourself despite not having the right eyecolor“ is a harsh kind of offer. Harsh, because why should the „wrong“ eye colour, a chance of birth, be something Kaladin has to overcome at all? And Dalinar himself has the ‚right‘ eye colour and it has given him an immense advantage in life. So even if he‘s accommodated Kaladin, IMO he has no right to lecture him on proving himself. Dalinar did not have to prove himself to be a high prince.
Also, even if Dalinar indeed has bought Kaladin free – nobody should have to earn their liberty by heroics. Limited gratefulness for that is understandable to me. Liberty should be something Kaladin and the other bridgemen simply have, no questions about it.
I think, although I don‘t know that, that a bodyguard usually thwarts one attempt in ten years or something. Kaladin has at that point saved Dalinar at least once and Adolin twice. I think normally that would be the tally of ten years as a bodyguard, so I think he‘s already due high praise in this regard.
At this point Kaladin knows that Moash is planning an attempt on the king and does not say anything, right? Well…. that is certainly not fulfilling the role as bodyguard. I mean I can perfectly understand how it looks to him like Alethkar is better off without Elhokar. I even still think this after Kaladin has sworn the latest oath. But yes, Kaladin is breaking his word to Dalinar here. I personally don‘t mind that either but I can see how that can be considered truly immoral behavior.
I agree that Kaladin very much is the ‚cup half empty‘ type. I don‘t mind that attitude very much. To me it‘s no big deal to be bitter, pessimistic, angry, cynical…. I can understand that. Although I see how that can be grating to someone else.
And I agree that Kaladin is entitled. That‘s a great trait of his! He feels entitled to the same respect, liberty and rights as somone with light eyes and I can see nothing wrong with that. Those are not something Kaladin ought to earn, but simply to have – and it shouldn‘t even be that Dalinar has the power to give and take those things from Kaladin or from anyone.
@61: Kaladin has to prove himself because his world sees him as less worthy due to his eye color. While eye color has nothing to do with it, Alethi are convinced it does. In that aspect, he has to overcome this general feeling and he will only succeed at this if he does his job, well. A good Captain gets noticed, but he needs more than 3 weeks worth of work before that happens.
He also has to prove himself due to the fact he is at a severe disadvantage in accepting a position he does not have the right training to occupy. He has never led more than 20 men, so to be given the command of 1000 is a huge step. He is to prove he can actually do it. Anyone would have to prove himself, even lighteyes.
Also what makes you believe Dalinar didn’t have to prove himself? Even Adolin had to prove himself before he was given any command at all. In fact, Adolin likely had to prove himself twice as more as Kaladin before his father granted him any unit to command and even then, Dalinar listens more readily to Kaladin’s advices than his own son.
Yes, slavery is bad, but in their world it exists. In their world, there are slaves and slaves have to either earn their liberty or pay for it. Kaladin’s liberty was bought with an artifact worth more than an entire princedom: just by doing that Dalinar already gave him an incredible measure of respect.
Yes, Kaladin has saved Dalinar and Adolin, but he has also betrayed them. It was not mistake on his part, it was not “one he missed”, he purposefully decided to betray their trust, so no. For me, he hasn’t prove himself trustworthy enough. All he has proven was those he perceived as his men will always pass in front of his duties which may be admirable in some way, but I can’t say it is a quality I would wish to have in my bodyguard.
Also yes he should have to earn respect due to his eye color, but so is the world into which he lives. He can’t go about an ignore it simply because he dislikes it. All he manages to accomplish with his attitude is to aggravate others and make them less prompt to change their ways. It is true in our world as well as there are individuals who are at a disadvantages in many situations (for instance, I have read women in some companies have to seel twice as much as men in order to get the same bonus) and have to prove themselves more than others simply because. No it isn’t fair, but life isn’t fair and the first step towards a more fair universe is to do your job better than the “proper person” would have.
Wetlander @48:
How exactly do you suppose that Kaladin could have ensured that the shards were disposed of as he wished? Kaladin was the rightful owner of the shards, by all convention;the shards were his to do with as he pleased. He directed that his main man, Coreb, should takethe shards. Instead, Amaram, his Lord and commanding general, stole the shards, killed all the witnesses to his theft except Kaladin, and branded Kaladin into slavery. Tell me again, how exactly was Kaladin supposed to ensure that his wishes with respect to the disposal of the shards were followed?
Sheighlagh @49:
I’m sorry, but that is contrary to what is in the text, and if you can produce textual evidence that Kaladin just walked away and didn’t care if the shards were disposed of properly, I’ll want to see it.
As for the charge of being arrogant because he didn’t want to wear the shards, that seems to me an extreme example of inverted logic. The shards are worth a king’s ransom, and would instantly elevate the owner into a high-ranking member of the nobility. For reasons that are clearly explained in the text, and which you claim to understand, Kaladin knew he could not comfortably wear the shards, and instead chose to elevate his friend into the powerful high-status position. And for this he is accused of being arrogant? That is just Orwellian double-think, in my opinion.
Let me reiterate one of my points in a conversation with Gepeto on an earlier thread: I can understand that Kaladin is not everyone’s favorite character, but I would wish that the Kaladin-bashers would restrict their criticisms to what is actually in the text, and not ascribe their own thoughts and feelings to Kaladin so they can condemn him for it. The statement that:
is only one example of this unmerited bashing in just this thread alone.
@62: He left them on the ground unattended. I reread the sequence and you were right though, he did name Coreb to pick them up for him. My mistake here, my recollection of event are he left them there as Amaram has the Blade in his possession later on which means Coreb never picked it up. I should have reread the passage instead of quoting from memory, so apologies here.
The mistake he did was then leave, not caring to see if the Blade was properly secure within Coreb’s hands.
As for arrogance, I consider him arrogant because the reason he refused to pick it up was a desire not to become like they, the evil lighteyes, because it represents everything he hates. In other words, he thinks himself as higher than the Shards, better, greater as he would not lower himself to even touch it.
I agree however not every reader will interpret the passage in the same way and I agree it can read differently. I’d say part of my impressions of WoK are now tainted by WoR Kaladin who is well… arrogant.
I personally find the Kaladin bashing refreshing because he is a character seldom discuss in a negative way, so I appreciate to juggle through it. Rest assure I still like Kaladin and I thoroughly enjoyed reading his POV in WoR. I disliked part 4, but I loved him in all other parts. Most of my apparent dislike sprout from later discussions and pondering where I ended up being aggravated by issues I did not care so much when I initially read the book.
Re: Kaladin and Helaran’s Shards – Kaladin said Coreb should take them… and then he walked away. Had he made sure Coreb picked up the Blade and put on the Plate on while he was standing there, there’s (IMO) a better-than-even chance Coreb would still have them. Who’s going to take away a Shardblade from someone who is holding it and wearing Plate? Since Kaladin just walked away and left his men standing there looking at it in disbelief, while Amaram’s guard showed up… yeah, they picked ’em up and assumed Amaram won them.
Sure, it’s possible that Amaram would simply have had his guard kill the spearmen on the spot before they could proceed with the job; he’s nowhere near as honorable as he wants everyone to think. However, he just watched this spearman kill a Shardbearer; I think it’s equally possible that, in the moment’s shock, he would have acceded to Kaladin’s wishes. It’s even possible that he would have pointed out that Coreb is not a trained swordsman, and asked Kaladin’s approval to use them differently – and Kaladin might even have agreed. But Kaladin didn’t do anything to ensure that his disposition was carried out; once he walked away, it’s all too easy for Amaram to claim them, and afterwards, it’s too late.
YMMV, of course, but that’s my opinion.
I’m not bashing Kaladin; I really like him, and I hurt for him, cheer for him, etc. I am not, however, blind to his faults; there are many times where he reacts to a situation without thinking through all the ramifications. It’s very human of him; he’s a well-written character. The fact remains that there are times when a bit more thought, a little deeper look, a shrewder consideration of the situation, would have benefited himself and those he leads. As it stands, he was a great squad leader back in Amaram’s army, given the way that army was conducted. He’s a good leader for the bridgemen, with a handful of good lieutenants to help out. He’s going to be an awesome Knight Radiant, I firmly believe, if he can keep from letting his prejudices get in the way of doing the right thing. But…
His mistake in the case of Helaran’s Shards was assuming that a squad leader could give an order to his commanding officer and have it obeyed. His mistake in the side carry debacle was failing to look at the bigger picture, and assuming that he was free to protect his men as he saw fit regardless of the effect on the rest of the army. His mistake in the dueling arena was assuming that he could ignore social convention in front of a huge (and largely hostile) audience, and demand a boon before it was offered. His mistake in deciding that the kingdom would be better off without Elhokar was (at least partially) in failing to recognize that there are factors in play that he may not understand. Human mistakes? Absolutely. But in every case, he assumed that he (19 years old, having been a soldier for four years and a slave for two) was qualified to impose his opinion on his commanding officers and even his king. If that’s not arrogance, I don’t know what is. (Arrogant: adj.; having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one’s own importance or abilities.)
@65: Thank you for this response Alice. It was a great post. I agree with every single word.
Alice, I certainly agree with you on your protrayal of Kaladin. He has his arrogance and pride. I’d probably say cocky rather than arrogant though. Semantics I know. It just seems like his problem comes down to youth and inexperience. I also thoroughly agree with your assessment of his mistakes. That being said, two things stand out in his character that make him at the very least a good leader and a great one with the right command structure. He learns from his mistakes, rarely making the same mistake twice. And the key for me is he cleans up his own messes. There are so many people that claim to be leaders but fail in those two tasks. In every instance you mentioned he endeavors to do better, and then goes out and does it. That goes for the Moash incident as well.
@65 Wetlandernw, I disagree with the tone of your evaluation of the Kaladin rejection of the shardblade incident. Kaladin was physically exhausted from the earlier battle and the combat with the shardbearer. He was also mentally/emotionally exhausted having just seen the bulk of his men killed by that shardbearer in almost casual fashion. He had failed his men, although he had saved his commander by accomplishing an almost unheard of feat. As the rightful owner of the shards, he assumed that his wishes would be fulfilled and that Coreb would be given the shards. After all, Amaram was an honorable man in his eyes. That was a mistake but not a failing. He had no desire to become a rich, powerful Lighteyes, nor could he tolerate the idea of holding a weapon that had killed so many of his men. The first reason is a mental attitude that bespeaks a certain prejudice while the latter is an emotional/instinctive reaction that bespeaks greatness of spirit. He repeated his wishes for the disposition of the shards to Amaram when the latter returned to the command post only to see his remaining men slaughtered while he was branded a slave. I agree with the other cited instances of failings (although the bridge side-carry was more an error than a failing), but not here. A retrospective view of Amaram should not be used to accuse Kaladin of a foolish assumption given Amaram’s standing among his men – including Kaladin.
EvilMonkey @67 – “Cocky: adj.; conceited or arrogant, especially in a bold or impudent way” ;)
I certainly agree that much of his attitude is the arrogance of youth, combined with the (also youthful) trait of not knowing just how much he doesn’t know. And as I keep trying to get people to understand, “arrogant” doesn’t necessarily involve contempt or disdain; it’s just placing an unwarrantedly high value on your own opinions.
I’m… not sure about “never makes the same mistake twice.” He does learn from his mistakes, and doesn’t do the exact same thing over and over, for which I am profoundly grateful. But he does repeat his tendency to focus on “his people” – whoever he decides they are at any given time – with little concern for the larger scheme of things. He’s growing in that, I think; as he begins to understand why the Radiants are returning, his focus is turning more toward the whole planet instead of just the bridgemen, the Kholins, or even Alethkar. If you skip over this lapse that almost breaks Syl, he really is moving forward.
“…at the very least a good leader and a great one with the right command structure.” Yes… but what is the right command structure? In a way, even though he shone as a squad leader in Amaram’s army, I think that particular structure taught him some very bad habits. He was pretty much free to do as he wanted with his own squad, so he taught them well and tuned them to his strategies and priorities. Amaram wouldn’t care: as long as he killed the enemies, yippee, and if he did something stupid and lost his whole squad, oh well. That’s what new recruits are for, right? But when he tried that approach with the bridge crew, his cleverness lost several other bridge crews and a bunch of soldiers to enemy archers. Sadeas was not pleased, and Kaladin ended tied to the roof in a highstorm for his troubles. The very kind of thinking that made him such a success as a squad leader in Amaram’s army, made him a disaster as a bridge leader in Sadeas’s army.
Dalinar, as someone noted earlier, has simply set Kaladin outside the command structure; he reports directly to the highprince, and no one else. I’m not quite convinced this is entirely appropriate, either; it gives Kaladin the … what … lack of accountability, maybe? that lets him decide to cover for Moash instead of dealing with the treason among his crew.
Well, I’m just rambling, now. I should be working on Chapter 63!
STBLST @68 – I think you mistake my tone, but I’m not going to argue it. As I said, understandable human mistakes – justifiable mistakes, perhaps, especially for a 17-year-old – but mistakes nonetheless.
I think the right command structure is being able to trust his commander not to waste lives frivolously, care about the well being of those he commands, and not letting soldiers commit atrocities for the hell of it. In short, Dalinar and thr Kholins. Setting Kaladin outside the chain of command is a wise move by Dalinar. It shows that he recognized the potential backlash of raising a Dark eye so high and sought to mitigate the damage to his well oiled machine. It almost backfired; Kaladin did indeed betray the trust Dalinar showed in him. But Kaladin fixed an error in his judgement, saving the day. His ultimate character won out; at the end of the day that character is what Dalinar saw in him, that character is what makes Dalinar trust him with responsibly that would have crushed most people of his level of experience, and despite a huge bump in the road it turns out all well.
@69 Alice
It’s surprising how consistently you manage to take a concept and perfectly summarize better than I could even in my own head to myself.
Being a teenage male doesn’t make Kaladin a bad person. But it certainly contributes to a number of his short comings.
I wonder if, in Kaladin’s case, it might also be because of his general character that when he makes mistakes something of a schism forms in the comments. He just reflects on the results of them so much that it’s hard for people not to also reflect on them, so when they come up you get a lot of heads butting over what people have come to think of them. In a way Kaladin pushes you to be in a camp to view certain decisions of him in one of a few specific lights.
Or maybe this is a phenomena more contained to the reread.
As for his mistakes, I’d just say I wouldn’t characterize the side-carry as one, even though Kaladin himself does. Sure he’d survive it because of being a main character, but considering the situation he didn’t really have any other option besides the side carry or sustain grievous casualties on that run, casualties that would almost certainly have ruined any chance he had of pulling Bridge 4 together. Sure it had unintended results he couldn’t have known of, but even if he had known, he would have needed to do the same thing. That’s how I see it anyways.
Not to really artlessly change the subject (couldn’t think of a decent segue), but I wanted to go back to Dalinar for a bit, more specifically what he told Kaladin. I agree with the sentiment that what Dalinar told Kaladin was the right thing: even if it doesn’t work, it’s better to work at things and try to be positive instead of forcing your perspective.
But what I wonder about is, Dalinar saying this: is it not just the wisdom of age, but also trying to groom Kaladin as a leader? Maybe someone to be Adolin’s right hand, even as a darkeyes (although I imagine Dalinar knows about Adolin’s intended gift), if something should happen to him?
Maybe I’m over-thinking it, but while what Dalinar says rings true on a sentiment level, I feel like with all his visions he realizes that if anything changes the social status of darkeyes it’s probably going to be the incredible social upheaval of the Desolation…but in the meantime if something should happen to him it’d be better if Adolin’s support was more level-headed.
@69 Wetlandernw, at the risk of delaying your preparation for the post on the next chapter, let me take exception to your suggestion that I am mistaken about your tone. One example from your last comment. “The very kind of thinking that made him such a success as a squad leader in Amaram’s army, made him a disaster as a bridge leader in Sadeas’s army.” Kaladin was a disaster as a bridge leader? Only if you buy into Sadeas’ approach that bridgemen are useful only as arrow fodder. His primary responsibility was to the men around him. First it was to his squad in Amaram’s army, then to Bridge 4 in Sadeas’ army. If keeping his men alive increased the chances of others being killed, that was not his doing. It was the responsibility of Amaram and Sadeas who had no problem with sending men to their deaths for non-essential reasons. Kaladin ruined one plateau assault with his side-carry stratagem and accepted the responsibility and punishment for that error. Otherwise, he was an efficient and innovative bridge-leader who gave no further reason for complaint (other than jealousy on the part of other crews and army men).
Another example from your last post. “Dalinar, as someone noted earlier, has simply set Kaladin outside the command structure; he reports directly to the highprince, and no one else. I’m not quite convinced this is entirely appropriate, either; it gives Kaladin the … what … lack of accountability, maybe? that lets him decide to cover for Moash instead of dealing with the treason among his crew.”
Kaladin gave a very cogent reason to Dalinar for being outside the command structure. As a Darkeye he was subservient to any Lighteyed officer who might give him harmful instructions or might even be a Sadeas agent. In order to fulfill his responsibility to guard Dalinar and family, he needed to have independence from anyone other than the Kholin family. He remains accountable to Dalinar and could have still allowed the assassination plot to proceed if he were under the authority of other Lighteye officers.
I hope that I’m not pushing you to take a more critical approach to Kaladin in response. In general, I have agreed with your assessment of characters and approach to the books. I expect that such agreement will continue.
I agree with Alice’s definition of arrogance. I believe our society has worked towards giving us a negative perception of arrogance to the point where it became an undesirable trait. Some measure of arrogance is desirable, but reversely too much of it makes you prone to make mistakes by refusing to listen to wise counsels from those who, arguably, know more than you do on a given subject.
Kaladin is essentially walking on the wrong side of arrogance. While he is able to assess his own mistakes, it has not prompt him to pay more heed to his superiors both in age and in experience. In other words, he has not actively seek the guidance he currently misses and when offered to him, freely, he spits on it because it was not the result of his own thinking process.
I also agree that while Kaladin did acknowledge his own screw-ups, much to his honor, he has not push the reflection much further to realize the issue were not his strategy-making, but the fact he is completely missing the point of warfare which is to hurt/destroy the enemy by any possible means which sadly includes sacrifycing untrained recruits such as Tien. However, by striving to protect his own men from harm he is unfortunately working against the greater goals of the army as he failed to realize when they were sadly killed by a Shardbearer. Yes, it was horrible, but they were at war and in wars there are Shardbearers which will easily kill dozens with a single stroke. Another man would have simply thought those men’s worthy sacrifice allowed their army to secure an worthy advantage: new Shards, but not Kaladin. Now I certainly do not fault him for this behavior as I sure wouldn’t do any better in the same circumstances, but IMHO it does highlight the fact Kaladin is not a good soldier. Oh he is good at yielding a weapon, at leading his men, at imaging strategies to protect his small group, but within the larger corp that is an army, he is not a good soldier because he is not willing to take a hit to secure advancement which basically is what warfare is all about.
I believe Kaladin is much better used as a bodyguard or as a defense man (protecting people in an attack village for instance) than in open attack.
I also agree having forced Kaladin outside the standard command structure removed him from any accountability which is basically a free-pass to do as whatever he sees fit. While I understand why Dalinar was willing to take the gamble, it seems as if he is giving this man he barely knows more trust than he is allowing himself to give to his own son. However, the excerpt showed us Dalinar has a long history is behaving this way, no doubt he was acting on instinct here.
Since, we are moving to the subject of Dalinar, my thoughts are he gave his trust to Kaladin purely based on life-long instincts, not due to a hidden agenda to provide Adolin with a right-hand man. I am not sure I would say Kaladin is more level-headed than Adolin… Adolin is… well Adolin.
@74: Hidden agenda implies it’s a conscious effort which was not what I was getting at, but that’s alright, I should have been clearer. I feel like, unknowingly, Dalinar wants to foster the same sentiments of leadership he has learned in Kaladin as he does Adolin. IN NO WAY TO DEPRECIATE ADOLIN, but because it really helps a leader to have someone else supporting them that can be on that wavelength.
You know, kind of like how Adolin is for Dalinar right now.
While I think instincts play a large role, I feel like subconsciously there’s probably something else at play here…well, besides the shared KR nature as well (maybe because they both fall heavy on the Honor side of the spectrum).
@74 and 75
When it comes to mentoring someone, you either do it or you don’t. It’s why Thom Merrilin actually started teaching Rand and Mat as his apprentice gleeman in EoTW when they started using that as a cover story. You can’t half teach someone. If you’re going to invest the time and energy into grooming someone you can trust to handle a leadership role you’re much better off giving them the best education for the job you possibly can whether that be your son the future high prince or the man you want to protect your son and the king as head of the Cobalt Guard.
Trying to do anything less would just be a colossal headache and would in all probability end badly for everyone involved.
Kaladin is in some ways closer to the hot headed zealot that we have seen brief glimpses of in the young Dalinar/Blackthorn. There is a part of him that loves fighting and the one word I would absolutely use to describe him is ‘driven’.
Adolin is in many respects a man who reacts based on his feelings and comfort zones as Gepeto often says, but he has also benefited in many ways from Dalinar’s restrictions on him–which I still believe were deliberate efforts to prevent him from becoming another Blackthorn.
He has a better understanding of the needs of not only his own men but that of other units and he is definitely more mentally stable than Kaladin.
Kaladin holds himself to restrictions, but he does so with too much rigidity to the point he barely manages to cling to his own sanity at times. That’s why Syl tried so hard to get him to laugh or smile.
I think the two men will be good for each other as friends because of the balance and both can benefit from Dalinar who has obviously lived through enough crap first hand to know what to teach them to avoid.
I have made my points regarding Kaladin and leadership. I think he is awesome at it and will continue to get better under Dalinar. Some of you disagree. I will leave it at that. But I think I’d be remiss if I didn’t address Gepeto’s comment @74 regarding rhe nature of warfare and sacrificing new recruits to achieve an objective.
First, I would never follow a commander that was so callous about spending the lives of his soldiers. Maybe that was how it happened in the Napoleonic era of warfare but even then that would be incredibly wasteful. There are times when commanders have to spend lives like water to achieve an objective but a smart commander, a commander worthy of loyalty and respect would avoid those situations like the plague. Further, if that situation were to arise it would be because all other options would have been exausted. Lastly, would you consider Amaram and Sadeas as commanders who care at all about their troops? I would not. They did Kaladin a disservice by the way they ran their armies and I believe that had Kaladin started with Dalinar he would be a much better leader than he is. It’s amazing that he is as good as he is considering the piss poor instruction he recieved at the beginning of his career. The purpose of warfare is to make the other side quit. Troops who respect their leaders fight harder, better, and are less likely to quit when shit hits the fan.
Couple of thoughts on possible future development for Elhokar…
So far he’s not been a particularly interesting or compelling character. Will that finally change in book 3…? There’s a bunch of things that could help: no more Parshendi assassins to fear. No more meddling Sadeas. He’s been able to become more honest about his faults and has had a fresh perspective with being with the Herdazians. It’s also possible that Dalinar won’t be looking over Elhokar’s shoulder so much giving him more room to grow.
But will that be enough? By itself, probably not. I think he needs a firmer idea in his mind about what he wants to do and how he wants to do it.
It’s possible that Shallan will be able to help – after all, she grew significantly in one book herself so she might have a fresher take on the problem. Jasnah’s hint about the illusion of perception helped Shallan a lot – I wonder if she will be able to pass it on to Elhokar?
Given that the King’s job is basically “knowing the correct course of action for the Kingdom” and that Kaladin could hardly make worse decisions than Elhokar (most of the time), I feel like Kaladin’s arrogance here is in good company. Dalinar only gets a pass here because his experience lets him see what is usually the best course, but even then, he’s still pretty arrogant with his tendency towards “My Way or the Highway” thinking.
@76: With regards to Kaladin and Adolin and emotions..
Kaladin’s emotions do not impact his capacity to rationalize, but they impact how he performs this rationalization. In other words, he is often seen trying to find the proper rational to justify his emotions. Once he manages to craft a line of thought which satisfies him: he acts. As a result, he is seen brooding over the same emotion over and over again up until he is satisfy he figured out how to deal with it.
Kaladin needs to learn to how to separate his emotions from his thinking process and realize when he is merely trying to justify them in a rational way.
Adolin’s emotions severely impact his capacity to rationalize. The stronger they are, the less able he is to have coherent thoughts. He gets grip in them to the point where all he can do is react and feed into the emotion until it blows away. As a result, he is bouncing ball jumping from one emotion to the other without any coherent rational. It makes him spontaneous, impulsive and prone to get into trouble for reason he can’t identify.
Adolin needs to learn how to sooth himself and to identify when he is stuck into his emotional loop such as to prevent himself from acting until he regains his calm.
Both men have a lot to learn from each other. Adolin has to learn from Kaladin emotions are not an excuse to simply burst out, he needs to keep on thinking. Kaladin can also teach him adaptability as the farther he gets from is comfort zone, the more emotional he get. Kaladin can learn from Adolin to see the larger picture, to take in larger issues into consideration and that a smile once in while can open him more doors than he thinks.
Both can learn from each other the value of friendship, the value of having someone who has their back no matter what.
All in all, I agree they are made to be best friends, though I am not sure Dalinar have process those thoughts. He is convinced his son is a miniature replica of himself when he is everything but that.
@77: In WW1 they sent thousand of men to die in minutes in order to secure a 10 foot advancement… I’d say sacrificing men to gain an advantage is a tactic seen in warfare. I am not, of course, approving of it of such tactic, but it seems this is how it happens in wars. In that optic, I say Kaladin is perhaps not best suited person to be a front line soldier.
Some appear to have a sanguine attitude towards war and the sacrifices involved. While some wars may be necessary to avoid a greater evil, war should be judged, at best, as a necessary evil. The methods used even in a necessary war may be objectionable on moral grounds. Thus the futile slaughter of millions of men in the prolonged trench warfare characterizing WWI must be deemed immoral, stupid, and an abject failure of the political/military leadership of the countries involved. The most egregious example of such immorality and stupidity was the totally unnecessary sacrifice of the lives of many dozens of American troops after the armistice was signed but the arbitrary ‘witching’ hour that it was to take effect (11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month) had not yet arrived. Some idiot American commander decided that he needed to have a German position captured by force of arms though it would be surrendered in a matter of hours. I suppose he thought it would look good on his war record. That kind of generalship and political leadership would be rejected by someone like Kaladin who would seek to protect his men from such destructive decisions. That was why his tactic as a squad leader in Amaram’s army was to position his men in the most easily defended place on the battlefield since the battle objective didn’t justify the loss of life. In fact, the primary objective of Amaram’s battles with other Alethi leaders was to determine and ship his best fighters to Sadeas army. While this attitude doesn’t make for a good, i.e., obedient, soldier, it makes for a good commander – given other qualities such as leadership, fighting ability, and tactical/strategic vision. In particular, it makes him admirably suited to lead the battles against the Voidbringers. He would not hesitate to kill such opponents, but would not want to sacrifice lives for the cause unnecessarily.
I agree that Kaladin and Adolin would make for a very potent fighting combination – just as they did in the 2 vs 4 shardbearers battle in the arena. Besides his fighting ability, Adolin’s sunnier personality – if he has not lost it in the aftermath of the Sadeas killing, would help Kaladin get over the inevitable losses they would experience.
Gepeto,
I also agreee with regarding Kaladin is better suited for body guard work, rather than strictly army. In fact I recall him having a few philosophical discussions with Syl regarding having to kill parshendi etc and his duties as a windrunner to protect.
Interesting discussion! Yes, Kaladin is a very emotional person and quick to react from emotion and instinct. This can work very well but can also lead to mistakes such as the side-carry and the challenge in this chapter. It woud have been better to think through the consequences, particularly in this chapter. Kaladin is also a very moral person. This can also lead to mistakes and problems. However, this is also a trait that makes him a good person and a good leider. During war he protects his squad – that actually makes him both a great leader and a great war leader (read Sun Tzu).
His decision to allow the assassination attempt on Elhokar is, IMHO, completely different from his other mistakes. Here, he knows he is doing the immoral thing. The wrong thing not just for consequences and timing, but also the wrong thing because it is morally wrong, very wrong. I believe that’s why Syl left him after this decision, because he is acting dishonourably. This assassination is the opposite of everything Honor stands for! That is not true for the side-carry or the challenge in the arena, those are foolish and hot-headed but not the opposite of Honor.
TLDR: emotional leader with hot-headed mistakes and one very wrong decision that costs him Syl.
More (very late) comments:
On Kaladin’s leadership capabilities: He’s undoubtedly a good leader. A man doesn’t do what he did to Bridge 4, and subsequently with the other bridges, if he’s not a good leader. That doesn’t mean he’s perfect, without room for improvement, but the proof, as they say, is in the pudding. He’s a good leader.
On Kaladin’s whiney-ness: Yep, he is. And he comes by it honestly – as this WoB from Twitter makes clear, he suffers from depression. I don’t know if that depression is a result of his experiences, or if he’s got some hereditary condition, or if it’s related to his affinity for wind (which is, IMO, what led Syl to him to bond in the first place – a theory I’ll delve into more in a later chapter when I’ve caught up). The bottom line is that he’s suffering from a disease, and some allowances should be made for that fact (though by all means feel free to continue being annoyed by it – I am for sure!). Hopefully as he progresses he’ll overcome that particular malady.
On Kaladin’s ability to make a correct decision on Elhokar’s ability to rule: Yeah…no. Not even close. Even if he weren’t emotionally invested/biased and far too close to the situation, he simply doesn’t have the capacity/experience/knowledge to make a correct decision. He hasn’t yet realized that he doesn’t know everything (and as I’ve said before, true genius is in recognizing what you don’t know). He may never have that realization (many people don’t), but until he can recognize it, he’ll continue making erroneous decisions like this.
On Alice’s questions:
1. Yes, it was a good thing for Kaladin to bring up. More honesty between two honorable men who are on the same side, as Dalinar & Kaladin are, is almost always a good thing.
2. Yes. Just as above, more honesty is better than less. It could have some short-term consequences that may not be ideal, but long-term it would solve a lot of misunderstandings. Of course, that would also make for a less interesting book, so there’s that too.
3. Nah. Kaladin’s not in a place right now where he’s capable of putting that much trust in Dalinar.
The chapter title is a reference to the epigraph for WoK Chapter 69, a Death Rattle:
After reading WoR, it’s clear to me this refers to the assassination scene at the end. Kaladin is the voice. “The one who saved my life” is Moash, referring to when he pulled Kaladin out of the way after Dunny died. “The one who killed my promises”, in context, is Elkohar, though I’m of the personal opinion Kaladin killed his own promises.
Anyway, how ridiculously awesome is the whole-book-and-multiple-years-in-advance prophecy? Sanderson, you’re amazing beyond words.
Has anyone looked back at the Death Rattles to see which make sense now? (I seem to recall another about two people emerging from a chasm with a heart.) I wonder how many other Death Rattles or Diagram fragments will suddenly become clear four or five books down the line!